The Differences Between Human Beings and trolls

[Flayme]

A couple of recent threads have pointed out (quite rightly) that many people, from time to time, exhibit 'troll-like' behaviour.

Fair comment - maybe it's time to work up a clearer definition of the troll than simply looking at the behaviour. I'll kick off ... please feel free to chip in.

1. Knowledge of subject - we all occasionally display amazing ignorance. That's human. Trolls, however, consistently and persistently display utter ignorance of the subject at hand: sexist comments on nurses' groups, blasphemy on religious groups .. I kid you not, and it's clearly no accident.

2. Pedantic in the Extreme - Many perfectly OK human beings can be quite pedantic, but troll posts typically display this trait in order to prevent a serious discussion from advancing. On occasion, it's hard to tell the serious pedant from the troll; but when combined with other features, the troll usually stands out from the crowd

3. Off-topic posting - Often genuine errors, but, if from an 'outsider' they deserve matter-of-fact response; if genuine, a brief apposite response is simply netiquette; if it's a troll post, you have denied it its reward. Again, if this is a repeated behaviour, or combined with other trollish behaviour, it's rarely a mystery.

4. Missing The Point - we're all human, and this can happen to the best of us. But trolls rarely answer a direct question - they cannot, if asked to justify their twaddle - so they develop a fine line in missing the point.

5. Abusive - Few regular forum/Usenet users can say they have never lost their cool; good luck to those who can make that claim! But trolls go from nothing to four letter words with zero provocation, and do so regularly. This is not the case with human beings.

Like most internet bad behaviour, the definition depends a lot on intent; has someone got ratty because they've been unfairly attacked, or are they making fuss about nothing, simply to disrupt the group?

In most cases, human beings will show one, maybe two of these traits; trolls will consistently and repeatedly show many more. On occasion, it's a thin line; maybe a troll is rejoining the human race, maybe a once normal person has given in to the temptation to be a total idiot. But usually, read a couple of posts and the answer is fairly clear

[mydoghasfleas]

Nice taxonomy, but I have to disagree that intent should be a deciding factor. I'm of the "if it smells like a troll, it's a troll" camp. Ignorantia juris non excusat.

At its basest level, trolling comes from egotism. It drives people to become overly aggressive and disruptive when they need attention or encounter opposing views (which will always be "wrong"). I'm not sure trolls aren't a step above egotists-in-denial because they are at least aware of their true motivation. I could give you some perfect examples if it were appropriate to identify people and places here...

[Flayme]

No need, we've all seen them

Intent is not the deciding factor, but it counts for a lot.

While I agree many people with trollish behaviour may not be quite aware of what effect they are having, only the mentally ill troll remains unaware that they are causing a nuisance after a while - even if they 'justify' their actions to their own satisfaction.

That accounts for some, but not many (with stalkers, of course, it's a very different story).

And I'd certainly concede that some trolls have no real understanding of the nature of the Internet; they treat the conversations as if each one was a private one-to-one, and anyone else who joins in is ignored - or treated to their own personal conversation. Hence the 'don't feed the trolls' advice - each new poster restarts the whole boring debate!

The joy of that kind of troll, is that when you talk ABOUT them,rather than TO them, they have a real problem responding at all.

[Hi-Tack]

What about the intelligent troll,the one who disrupts forums just because he/she can.Now I say intelligent meaning he/she knows how to use the internet is possibly holding down a good job and has been educated.They join forums with the clear intent of creating havoc among members.If its an open forum they may use a members name with maybe one letter changed or a name that identifies with another member.Is this a case of egotism.They are also pedantic,abusive,miss the point [deliberately].

[Flayme]

They may be intelligent, but they'd be very, very immature and socially inept, if that was the case; to find trolling amusing once or twice is one thing, to become a serial troll AND be intelligent enough to understand how pathetic it is, suggests either alcohol or some other deep-seated issue.

The average troll can get by on the illusion of power; no intelligent person could get a buzz off that for long.

[nirvana]

They may be intelligent, but they'd be very, very immature and socially inept, if that was the case; to find trolling amusing once or twice is one thing, to become a serial troll AND be intelligent enough to understand how pathetic it is, suggests either alcohol or some other deep-seated issue.

The average troll can get by on the illusion of power; no intelligent person could get a buzz off that for long.

You have no idea how much that describes a certain troll.Definitely alcohol and I do suspect the old waccy baccy.Odd behaviour for a grown person who otherwise appears to lead a normal life.If the alcohol and WB are not interfering with work etc why does it takeover when they are on the internet.

[mydoghasfleas]

You have no idea how much that describes a certain troll.Definitely alcohol and I do suspect the old waccy baccy.Odd behaviour for a grown person who otherwise appears to lead a normal life.If the alcohol and WB are not interfering with work etc why does it takeover when they are on the internet.

It may not be the alcohol/drugs taking over when they're online, rather their online behaviour and substance abuse are both symptoms of something deeper, that all is not well in their 'normal life' and they use the internet to act out or escape.

[rena]

I can honestly say, that in all the years I've been on the net, participating in msg boards, etc I have never...and I mean NEVER.. experienced a troll and i guess i have taken that for granted as now i've been exposed to a few and i believe they're all working together. I've done the ignoring route, i've done the reply route, i've responded with "love" simply saying, "oh..gee.. *so-n-so" you missed me? i'm touched" but no matter what i do they still respond with intensity. some things they've done, identified me as someone i most certainly am not, ie crack addict, prostitute. they've done internet searches and found my myspace page. they've made fun of my recently deceased grandmother, of which i never responded to because i knew what they were doing. they were able to locate another poster and found their myspace page and posted some personal fotos which were innocent however they made fun of her physical appearance. they go off topic at every turn and if, lets say, I respond to a particular post they immediately identify myself as a troll. they spend hours searching the internet for inappropriate fotos including cartoons identifying pedophiles and then post them on this particular board at which time they identify first myself as a pedo troll and anyone else who would defend me. one did eventually apologize to me privately as they realized that their "friend" had lied to her, no kidding, and then was kidded off the board but a day later she was back albeit a lot tamer. the primary troll has been kicked off the board at least four (4) times and when he returns he's ok at first, we actually started out in a reasonable conversation about the topic and once he had my answer flaymed me and then i get messages from other posters for engaging him. the primary troll has been booted from this board and its sister board over 110 times and yet he's still allowed to stay on even under the same name or a variation of. in one hour he was reported to the moderators 10 times and yet he's still there. i don't want to leave the board because the topic is important to me, at least an aspect of it, and i don't want to give him the satisfaction i just don't know what more i can do. i want to post the true definition of a troll so that everyone knows that he is in fact one even though he denys, of course, and i'm labeled one and want to post what those he's engaging with should do to stop it. what should i do? i'd really appreciate any advice anyone can give me. thank you so much for your time, and i'm sorry this was so long.

[Flayme]

There's several issues here.

First, I wonder why you got singled out for this treatment? Any idea what started it?

But at this stage, not only has it probably gone too far to reverse it, it is clear that the moderators really are not doing their job - and there's nothing you can do about that.

Personally, I'd never even consider posting details about my family anywhere on the Internet, and I suspect that was a mistake, and one you cannot reverse.

Whatever your topic, there are almost certainly other venues; it's certainly worth looking, and if you find one you like, sign up with a different identity, and be much more careful what you 'give away' about yourself.

Alterantievly, you need to take a much stronger line where you are. 'ignoring' means *always* ignoring, *never* rising to the bait, *always* thinking carefully what you post.

But be honest with yourself; are your views and attitudes compatible with the majority on that board? A Democrat is always going to have problems on a Republican board (and vice versa), and that's just one example! Anonymous web users are notoriously intolerant of dissent, and however 'right' you may be, you can never - NEVER - expect to change anyone's mind; that way madness lies!

[skybluskyblue]

I have not read all the posts about "trolls" but many characteristics described for a "troll"
sounds much like a person who has autistic traits. For example, I've read that trolls cannot or will not look people in the eyes-- this is a classic characteristic of a child with Asperger's disorder (a type of high functioning autism). Has anyone here noticed the similarities and what do you make of it if you did?

This is my first day and hour that i have seen the definition of an internet troll.

Thanks for your response.

[Flayme]

Welcome!

I'm not sure how you'd know about eye contact with a troll on the Internet?

I've heard the 'Asperger's' theory, and I'm not quite convinced - I suspect that is a closer fit for those forum.newsgroup members who are pedantic about 'fact' and grammar, and cannot cope with dissenting views; they're the ones who often appear to think they 'own' the group, and are major troll targets.

People living with Asperger's and related conditions are also very unlikely to consistently take the initiative, and many troll behaviours - constantly changing the subject etc., are very atypical.

I think trolls are a closer fit to what used to be called 'inadequate psychopaths'; a personality disorder characterised by immaturity, insecurity, very low self respect, and a sad need for attention. They cannot distinguish between annoyance and acclaim - like a marketing person who believes that all publicity is invariably good publicity. Successful marketing people know the subtly different 'any publicity may be good publicity, but not necessarily'!

But no way to know for sure!

[skybluskyblue]

I saw the idea of "eye contact problems" on the first web site i saw about "trolls"
"Some live in a fantasy world, and find it hard to concentrate on real life; they can't make eye contact..." http://www.flayme.com/troll/angler.shtml .
So, that's how i got that idea. Plus i know that autistic people love the internet and claim it as the ideal place for them to find social interaction.

Me, i have been diagnosed with Asperger's but i am one of the rare female "Aspies".Supposedly the female aspies have great sensitivity and empathy, where as the male version is the opposite and are great "systematizers", {"He is best known for his work on autism, including his early theory that autism involves degrees of 'mindblindness' (or delays in the development of theory of mind); and his later theory that autism is an extreme form of the 'male brain', which involved a reconceptualization of typical psychological sex differences in terms of empathy and systemizing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen } I signed up here because i fear having the worst part of "trolling" in my repertoire.
Eh...maybe my fear proves that will not happen..i don't know.

Thank you!

[Flayme]

I don't think they'll pin that one on you

[johnthed0g]

Very interesting site this, I had asked Andrew for advice some time ago but hadn't been here before. Now as all these trolls exhibit very similar traits but in different places is is possible that it is the same group of people? I have quite a high regard for humans in general & can't /don't want to think there are THAT many people like this around, could it just be a small group bent on destroying things, or am I just thinking too much? The characteristics are so similar, down to trying to find you in real life, pretending to be nice & the hurt party, blaming you for things. Does anyone else find a group of them working together but denying they are in it together? I just don't believe that this sort of thing actually happens, I generally get on well with people & this experience is quite upsetting as well as bloody annoying!
Someone once called them "WANNABELONGAS" they want to be part of something...anything, some do but the nastiest one's just want to destroy things.

[nirvana]

Thisis no small group of people, they are everywhere in groups small large and the loner. The loner is the creepiest, he only infects some forums, usually the ones who have previously banned him, or the ones where he has taken umbridge at one member. For instance if he was a biker and was a member of biker forums, he would never be a troll, he would never admit to being a troll and would round on anyone who behaved in a troll manner. He is a destroyer of anything he cannot be a part of, sad excuse for a human being.
Yahoo boards are an eyeopener for bad behaviour on the internet, the abuse on there is astounding.

[johnthed0g]

BUT...do you think they are connected? They are SO similar it what they do & how they do it, I find it difficult to believe there are so many of them to be a coincidence.....or are there that many horrible people about?

[Flayme]

I would never accuse trolls of working together; you only have to look closely at any regular troll to (almost always) see the signs of a classic under confident, friendless, socially inadequate idiot.

What does happen is that trolls think much alike; so there may be a feeling of pack mentality - but no leader, no plan, no idea .... just the primeval shared instinctive urge to kick someone when he's down (if they think they can get away with it). Even there, the motivation is rarely focussed on the individual they are kicking (why would they care?), just revenge on a world that treats them with contempt. Poor ickle things. It would never occur to them that they had earned scorn and derision; so it's someone else's fault - anyone else's fault!

[johnthed0g]

Hmm.. we are all guilty of thinking "it's someone else's fault" & we all at times exhibit troll-like traits, but I suppose the fact we realise this makes the difference. I am accused of being paranoid because I don't want people to know my real life ID & therefore be able to turn up on my doorstep, but this does concern me. A shame because I enjoy the help & advice(& learning) of travel forums but don't understand why people get SO upset over nothing or why some admin seem to be terminally thick. I am convinced that the little group that haunt me are one & the same over several forums on the same or similar subject. Is it possible that there could be, in my "fan club", a head troll or leader who those who think of themselves as lesser beings look up to & follow his/her/it's lead? Sorry to go on but this phenomena really intrigues me, as well as worries me. I would also love to get my own back!!

[Flayme]

There's no way to know for sure. In many areas, there's a bunch of people, including the trolls, who join a whole bunch of forums; that may be true for travel. You think they are following, but they may have been there already.

It's also possible that one stalker is taking the trouble to do a bit of rabble rousing; in my experience, that can work for a day or two, but the attention span of the average troll is fairly low. Mind you, you do feed them, so it's conceivable.

There are also a few places like alt.flame where some of the saddoes hang out; you'll see many posts saying 'hey help me whack so-and-so in such-and-such-a-forum'. But again, few would bother, and most that do, don't for long. I've not been to alt.flame in 7-10 years, and I gather it's pretty quiet these days, but there may be other places.

I would also love to get my own back!!

You do look for trouble, don't you?

It's probably a bad idea - but you know that!

[johnthed0g]

Trouble is my "fan club" react to virtually anything I post on forums that I am interested in. I will probably not bother much more, pity though as this means they get their way by driving be away. What worries me is these people will pick up on any little snippets of information that we give away in order to find out who we are. I have had a couple of incidences of people "googling" my screen name to try to ID me, wrongly as it turned out, not that they believed me when I said, I wonder if they contacted the poor buggers they thought were me? I am disappointed with the admin on sites though.